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Talmud Hypo: Misdelivered Package, Vendor Re-Sent, Found Original
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:04 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist I placed an order for $250 worth of Gear from REI. It was delivered to the wrong address -- a block over. I went there, and the package was gone. I knocked, and no answer. I informed REI the package was misdelivered (it was), and I assumed stolen. They re-sent the order, overnight, at no charge.
Today I was walking around and the neighbor was outside. I asked if they had the package. They did, and they gave it to me. They apparently thought they'd hang on to it for safe keeping, and then give it to me when they got around to it.
Well, I'm about to get $250 worth of extra stuff from REI. I am reproducing their exact email below which, at no time, instructs me I must return the duplicate.
Can I keep it?
>> I’m sorry to hear your order hasn’t arrived! That’s definitely not the experience we strive for. >> >> I just went ahead and created a replacement order for you, XXXXXXXXXX. It should arrive by July 2nd. You’ll be able to monitor the status of your order by entering the order number here. >> >> Once it ships, we'll send you an email with your new tracking number. >> >> I’ll also have UPS email you a Return Shipping Label, just in case you end up receiving the original order. The email will contain step-by-step instructions to complete the return, if you need it. >> >> You should be all set here, but please let me know if you run into snags or if there’s anything else I can help with! |
Date: June 30th, 2026 4:17 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., if the merchant is goy (which REI is, ofs), the obv CR is to return the duplicate merchandise using the original receipt. that way, you get the items for free. you have no affirmative duty to disclose further developments since they offered to replace the items.
for hypo purposes, if the merchant is jewish, you'd have a duty to notify the merchant and ask them how they want to proceed -- and if they want the items back, they'd have to ship them back at their expense. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:18 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist incredible talmud (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971666) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:20 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., also note their email does DIRECT you to return the original items if you receive them. it uses discretionary language like "if you need it." if they said something more firm like our sending you replacement items is on condition of your continuing duty to return the items to us, then it would be a different case.
"if you need it" almost implies that you can make a judgment call whether to keep the items or return them if you don't want them. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:24 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist They are giving me a return label in the case where I find the original.
Therefore, if I find the original, I will have the original and a return label.
Once I have both, I can use the return label, if I need it.
The question is what exactly would bring about my needing it? |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:27 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., - you deciding you dont want the items in your house
- you deciding you want to enrich a company with $3B revenue
- you deciding you dont want to bother with jewish shenanigans
- you deciding you want to be a good goy and "do the right thing" |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:36 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist REI isn't profitable, in part because it's a money laundering operation for members (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971711) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:40 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., ceo made 4.5M in 2024. a good sinecure for execs and board members (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971728) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:43 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist exactly, the whole thing is an enrichment scheme for the "owners and members" with no pretense of profitability (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971738) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:48 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., how's it a profit scheme for the members when anyone can be a member for $30 for a lifetime?
i assume the free market sets the prices of the merch taking into account the dividend and annualized cost of the membership fee. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:53 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist ostensibly they're tanking the company while extracting rents and discounts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971762) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:54 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., how are the members doing this? "discounts" in the form of rebates are no different than any other retailer having rebates, reward programs, airline miles programs, costco 2% cash back for exec club members
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:55 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist except this retailer can't afford the discounts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971775) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:56 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., is that so? i dunno. if it is, that's on management, not the members (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971778) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:57 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist Yeah they distributed $200M to members in "rewards" with an annual net loss of $53M (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971784) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:03 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., why would management do so? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971801) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:05 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist i guess to increase sales (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971806) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:37 PM Author: dark patterns idk about the Talmud but here's how I'd interpret it autistically.
in practice, they're a large corporation so who cares? keep the shit, sell it, whatever.
in theory, in the sentence "I’ll also have UPS email you a Return Shipping Label, just in case you end up receiving the original order," the words "just in case" stand for "in preparation for the case where." to me, that isn't ambiguous. they're sending the label to be used in the case where you receive the original items, necessarily imo. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:38 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist sure, i could use it in that cause. but they don't tell me i have to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971720) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:41 PM Author: dark patterns definitely not, but in my reading, they're logically implying (not just "implying" in a general sense) that that's what you're supposed to do.
but who cares? even if they specifically said to send it back, I wouldn't. in an extremely salient possible world, your neighbor really did steal it. it's fine. the delivery got fucked up and they had to send a new one. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:42 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist slow down chief, you're gonna have to explain what you mean by "logically implying." I'm just a simple consumer that ordered a blow up mattress for sleeping on the ground in the forest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971736) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:42 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., in context, the "just in case" implies not only that you receive the original order but that you elect to return it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971734) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:44 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist yeah "if you need it" is truly incomprehensible (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971740) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:46 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., rule of lenity. ambiguities construed in favor of the criminal defendant. you're not guilty for not sending it back. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971744) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:47 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist really this is the most Emilio-coded email of all time. It's basically asking me to pay for my order if i feel like it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971745) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:48 PM Author: dark patterns that's why I completely ignored that sentence and focused on the one before it. the "if you need it" sentence means nothing to me (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971751) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:53 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., you cant ignore provisions in a statute/contract. everything has meaning and is relevant to intent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971761) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:54 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971767) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:59 PM Author: dark patterns hmm ok like I said below, throwing that sentence in could nudge it over to the reading that it's optional (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971793) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:43 PM Author: Risten Emailing with customer service doesn't create joinder. It's an informal conversation, and OP can make a judgment about the intent of the REI rep with far greater latitude than interpreting a statute or contract. In fact the customer service interaction often has motives other than simply resolving the dispute according to a strict legal interpretation, e.g., OP might chat up the rep about how much they love REI and how they always have great experiences with their reps, with the goal of buttering up the rep to give them what they want. The rep might talk about random polite BS so OP will give them a good score in the follow-up review. Plus REI has cultivated a certain "chill" aesthetic wrt returns and stuff, which comes into play as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971858) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:47 PM Author: dark patterns I think my reformulation requires fewer leaps in logic than that.
if you take the sentence exactly as written, they're saying that they're going to send the email if MiG receives the original order. but they're sending the email either way, so clearly that's not what they meant.
so what did "just in case" actually mean there? to me, it means "to be used in the case that." how would you re-word the original sentence? "to be used in the case that the original order arrives and you feel like it"? that's adding something extra imo. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:48 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist they never said "use". they are simply providing it to me so that, in the case i find the original items, i have the original items and the return label.
what i do with those 2 things is left ambiguous by saying they are giving them to me "if i need [them]."
What creates the need is not specified, which is the whole crux of the matter. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:52 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., exactly. the "need" is not specified -- need doesnt necessarily mean you receive the original package; it could mean that you want to be a good goy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971759) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:55 PM Author: dark patterns yeah "use" was extra, I'll go back to the first thing I said, "in preparation for the case where." I still think that setting it up that way defaults to the interpretation that it is to be used in that case. it would be fine if they added "if you feel like sending it back" to the sentence but that would be adding something, not the default interpretation of what they're actually saying.
but more importantly you should keep or sell it imo. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:55 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., why sell it when you can return it w/ the receipt? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971777) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:57 PM Author: dark patterns ? because that takes effort (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971782) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:05 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., return it by UPS using a label for the actual purchase (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971805) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:06 PM Author: dark patterns idk I'm lazy I wouldn't bother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971807) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:29 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist cr now i have 2 self immolating sleeping pads and 2 headslamp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971838) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:06 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist this actually gives plausible deniability that I oops used the wrong label (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971808) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:12 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., there's no issue. it's perfectly reasonable that you never received the original order, didn't like the items from the second shipment, and wanted to return the items you actually received for your money back.
of course, if you regularly claimed that packages are lost and got replacements and returned them for full refunds, they might red flag you.
but in a one-off situation like this, it's nbd. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:23 PM Author: dark patterns this is morally fine too bc who cares about large corps, but it does move it into active scammer territory rather than just "they made a mistake and I didn't go out of my way to correct it" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971828) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:26 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., 1) slippery slope there. what if you actually didnt like the items?
2) it's not active scammer territory because you had no intent to scam
3) in terms of scamminess, how's selling them on ebay any different than returning them to REI? i fail to see how it matters where you're trying to profit from with the goods. |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:34 PM Author: dark patterns 1) the possible universe where the neighbor really stole the items is more Salient than the one where the neighbor stole the items AND he didn't like the replacements
2) it's only scamming once you pretend you didn't like them to get money back. although... I guess sending it back is saying "I don't want these" rather than "I don't like these," and it's true that he doesn't want the duplicate items, so maybe it doesn't require lying about being dissatisfied
3) again it's a matter of not going out of your way to correct their mistake vs. actively deceiving them. but it's only active deception if he selects something like "I'm not satisfied with this item" in a dropdown or something. if he can just return them because he doesn't want/need them anymore, which he really doesn't because he acquired them in the meantime, then it's probably still not scamming |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:39 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist i'm comfortable taking advantage of these Emilio-ass motherfuckers sending me extra shit, but im not so Jewish as to try to profit off it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971844) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:40 PM Author: dark patterns yeah that's how I would feel too (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971847) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:32 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist yeah but i really like my Items (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971840) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:57 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist do you wanna buy a NEMO Flyer Self-Inflating Sleeping Pad and/or a Petzl Headlamp? I'll give you a good deal. Brand new. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971781) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:57 PM Author: dark patterns I read "Self-Immolating Sleeping Pad" at first and was like hell yeah (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971786) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:59 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist Do you want to buy a Self-Immolating Sleeping Pad (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971792) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 5:00 PM Author: dark patterns nffi (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971797) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:51 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., you're not reading the "just in case" with the "if you need it" in the next sentence. you also have to keep in mind that it's REI and they intentionally didnt want to sound lawyerly and harsh, and they intentionally drafted this ambiguously for the sake of seemingly friendly customer service. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971757) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:54 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist there's no way this Customer Service guy's name is actually "Andrew" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971764) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:55 PM Author: ...,,..;...,,..,..,...,,,;.., i assume it's a form letter and a white drafted it at some point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971771) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:59 PM Author: I'm a Phenomenologist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971794) |
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Date: June 30th, 2026 4:56 PM Author: dark patterns I completely discarded the "if you need it" sentence in my interpretation because it means nothing to me. if we take it as communicating something additional then yeah maybe that switches it over to the "optional" reading (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5878646&forum_id=2#49971779) |